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[回答] WalkSound 网友 关于Milonga

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发表于 2004-4-14 01:08:00 | 显示全部楼层

[回答] WalkSound 网友 关于Milonga

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Milonga确实可以认为是Tango他爸。但更多的认为Milonga是一种Tango
最简单的Tango是2/4拍,X X | X X|……
然后稍微复杂点,第1拍变为带附点的切分音,第2拍平均分为2拍, X . X  | X X | X . X  | X X ……
                                                                                                          1    2    3  4
然后再复杂点,把第1拍的第2个音和和第2拍的第1个音(2和3)用连线连起来,使之成为:  X. X. X |  X. X. X |  X. X. X |……
这时节奏可以认为有 8个8分音符,分成3组,前2组为3个8分音符。后1组为2个8分音符。重音落在每组的第1个音。由于最后一组与前2组相比少了一个8分音符,因此在律动上产生一个很强的向下一小节推进的作用——这就是Milonga。
Milonga在阿根廷音乐中占非常重要地位,是种非常重要的音乐。它一般以小调为主调,和声上常使用7音配合特有的律动上的作用来产生音乐的动力。往往比较忧郁,凄美。它的艺术之美非常明确的体现了阿根廷乃至南美音乐的一个最大特征:乡愁!(Nostalgia)
一般MILONGA由比较悠扬忧郁的旋律配合传统的3-3-2的节奏,使之产生节奏上的对比,很多MILONGA还会让旋律隐藏在节奏型的重音里,或者使主旋律在节奏型和旋律中来回起伏。
弹好MILONGA最重要的还是理解节奏上产生的律动,有每小节向前的动力,和声上充分体会各和弦的色彩来控制音乐的张力和力量;有时,可以注意到音乐里有些高低音的对话成分(比如Evocation)。此外就是切忌过分娇柔造作,因为MILONGA的美是非常从容的,演奏者也应该使音乐变得从容不迫;分清楚哪些是旋律哪些是和声对于如何安排指法和怎么弹很重要。
欣赏MILONGA比弹MILONGA更享受。现在,MILONGA在很多地方比较多用来当作TANGO舞蹈音乐。
音乐节选:http://asniler.com/sound-my/Vuelvo-Al-Sur.mpa
Piazzolla 《Vuelvo al Sur》的主题。改编为吉他2重奏

-----------------------------
Milonga-----一种民间歌舞,类似于Jota和flamenco...
这个 ~~~~~~~~~~~孙老师说的是西班牙音乐里的Milonga
------------------------------------------------
发表于 2004-4-14 01:12:00 | 显示全部楼层
吉他中国抖音
X. X. X |  X. X. X |  X. X. X |……------这个节奏型的Milonga我听到的较多(昨天没有等到你的回复所以找了些Milonga来听)。非常感谢
发表于 2004-4-14 07:55:00 | 显示全部楼层
GC视频号
赞一个. 有意义! 有收获! 这样有针对性地谈论音乐确实非常有意义! 很好的讨论. 希望这样的讨论越多越好. 古典论坛, 说人, 说事, 道尽吉他圈的是是非非; 谈古, 论今, 细表音乐界的恩恩怨怨.横批: 别装孙子.
发表于 2004-4-14 09:12:00 | 显示全部楼层
买琴买鼓,就找魔菇
以下是引用ani在2004-4-14 1:08:00的发言:

Milonga在阿根廷音乐中占非常重要地位,是种非常重要的音乐。它一般以小调为主调,和声上常使用7音配合特有的律动上的作用来产生音乐的动力。往往比较忧郁,凄美。它的艺术之美非常明确的体现了阿根廷乃至南美音乐的一个最大特征:乡愁!(Nostalgia)
感谢楼主这么细致的讲解!!
PS:我非常喜欢听 Milonga。忧郁,凄美,的确是一种伤感的美~~
发表于 2004-4-14 10:31:00 | 显示全部楼层

感谢Ani的精彩描述。。。


Milonga-----一种民间歌舞,类似于Jota和flamenco...
这个 ~~~~~~~~~~~孙老师说的是西班牙音乐里的Milonga
------------------------------------------------

  
请教:西班牙音乐里的Milonga 和"阿根廷音乐里的Milonga" 有何不同?
  
   历史原因我们知道,南美洲除巴西外(葡萄牙语).皆以西班牙语为母语,她的历史文
化,宗教信仰,风俗习惯,当然也包涵音乐,美术...都源于西班牙.
发表于 2004-4-14 10:41:00 | 显示全部楼层
我记得80年代末珠海吉他艺术节后出了一本画册(那里有杨雪非小时候弹琴的照片),画册的后几页是几个谱子。其中有一首好像是帕格宾纳写的,大多在第一把位演奏,节奏型与ani说的美隆加很相似。最开始的几小节交待了节奏型,旋律在低音声部:
7.  6.  5 | 3. 5. 7 | 6. 5. #4 |  
[此贴子已经被作者于2004-4-14 10:55:37编辑过]

 楼主| 发表于 2004-4-14 11:36:00 | 显示全部楼层
西班牙音乐里的MILONGA我记得应该是一种Flamenco,起源应该是吉普塞族或摩尔族。而阿根廷音乐里的MILONGA起源应该是非洲或古巴,虽然西班牙人曾殖民阿根廷,但在西班牙人去到那里以前,MILONGA音乐早已存在了。 记忆中最早时候是高地上的牧人对唱或合唱的山歌,以确认双方的存在。
发表于 2004-4-14 11:46:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用ani在2004-4-14 11:36:00的发言:

西班牙音乐里的MILONGA我记得应该是一种Flamenco,起源应该是吉普塞族或摩尔族。
而阿根廷音乐里的MILONGA起源应该是非洲或古巴,虽然西班牙人曾殖民阿根廷,但在西班牙人去到那里以前,MILONGA音乐早已存在了。 记忆中最早时候是高地上的牧人对唱或合唱的山歌,以确认双方的存在。

好像不是这样,请参考下文,都说出现于19世纪。
网上找来  http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3milnga.htm
http://www.lafi.org/magazine/articles/tango.html
Buenos Aires (Argentina) was founded by a Spanish expedition in 1536, then again in 1580. Immigration br ought many French, Spanish and Italians to Buenos Aires. Buenos Aires went on to become a major city. In 1816 the Waltz was introduced to Argentina, then came the Polka, Mazurka and Schottische. Spanish and Cuban rhythms mixed and the Habanera was born.

-- The Habanera music and dance came from Havana, Cuba and made its way thru Spain to Argentina in the early 19th century. The Habanera and the Polka played a part in the Argentine Dance known as the 'Milonga' ("Poor Mans Habanera"). The Milonga originated as a song with lively improvisations and a peppy tempo. When this tempo was quieted down and steps were added to it making the Milonga the first known Tango but had not yet been named as such. However the Milonga was very popular by the 1870's.
The tango and the milonga, while different genres within Argentine music, are closely related. But how so? And, if they are different genres, what is the tango milonga? A misleading use of these terms has only contributed to generate more confusion. This article, although not a comprehensive musicological or historical study of these genres, aims to answer these questions and to clarify the terms.

The milonga, which precedes the tango in history, was a solo song cultivated during the 19th Century by the gaucho (a sort of Argentine cowboy) in the vast rural area known as the Pampa. It derives from the payada de contrapunto, in which two singers (payadores), accompanying themselves on the guitar, improvised on different topics in a competition-like practice. The verses were octosyllabic quartets structured in a musical period of eight measures in 2/4. The term milonga is an African-Brazilian term that means words, that is, the words of the payadores. It may be named rural milonga in order to distinguish it from later developments of the genre.
Around 1880, through the Conquista del Desierto (the conquest of the desert), the Argentine government made possible the fencing of the Pampa and the subsequent distribution of the land into large properties for aristocratic owners and small plots of land for European immigrants, who were arriving in Argentina in large numbers. This forced the almost nomadic gauchos to settle down in the poorest suburban areas of the capital, Buenos Aires. Their adaptation to city life was difficult, and frequently they lived marginal lives of crime. Eventually they were called compadritos, a word used to denote a person with an aggressive character.

The relationship between the compadritos and the African-Argentine population in the Buenos Aires suburbs gave birth to the tango dance, which started as a result of the compadritos’ mockery of the black people’s dances with an important difference: the blacks danced separated and the compadritos danced embraced. Diverse historians affirm that the word tango derives from the name (in the slang of the black people) of their dancing places, known as tambos and, later, tangos . It is widely accepted that the mocking new choreography was taken to the brothels by the compadritos before tango music really existed as such. Eventually, music was created to fit this dance, and it is not strange that the rural milonga and the habanera, in fashion at the time, influenced it. Trial-and-error adaptations to the new dance, bringing together the rural milonga of the gauchos, the habanera of the European immigrants, and the African-Argentine dances in the melting pot that was Buenos Aires, created a mixture called tango.



The rural milonga had some particular characteristics: binary meter (2/4) and the following rhythmic pattern:

A triplet frequently replaced the dotted eighth-sixteenth notes, and the following syncopated figure could also appear:



The guitar accompaniment was structured over "spread" tonic and dominant chords, as in this example:

These characteristics of the rural milonga were also present in the early tangos of the 1900s. The tango El Choclo (1903), by Angel Villoldo, is a clear example of the influence of the rural milonga in the early tangos: 2/4 meter, the rhythmic pattern of the dotted eighth-sixteenth plus two eighth notes, and simple harmonies, usually alternating tonic and dominant chords:


Small ensembles formed by flute, violin, and guitar gave the rural milonga a peculiar timbre that the first tangos would keep. These types of ensembles would also be present in the brothels, the gathering places of the compadritos, where the early tangos were first played. The tango’s features described above are characteristic of the period comprised between the tango’s origins and 1920. This period is also known as the age of the Guardia Vieja (Old Guard). During that time, the rural milonga survived as a countryside genre independent of the tango.
From 1920 to approximately 1955 the tango underwent significant transformations. During this period, known as that of the Guardia Nueva (New Guard), three different types of tango appeared: tango milonga, tango romanza, and tango canción. The tango milonga is often called milonga interchangeably with the latter, producing confusion between the terms. Other names given to the development of the tango during this period are tango de corte milonga or milonga urbana.
Undoubtedly, Sebastián Piana was the pioneer of the tango milonga with his Milonga Sentimental, composed in 1931 with lyrics by Homero Manzi. It enriched the simple harmonies of the rural milonga and opened a whole range of rhythmic, melodic, and poetic possibilities. Many other composers followed his path: some of the most representative productions are La trampera (A. Troilo), La Puñalada (P. Castellanos), Nocturna (J. Plaza), and Taquito Militar (M. Mores).

A lot of tango milongas were performed in fast tempos, heavily marking the accents, giving them a solid rhythmic character. It is probable that this fact contributed to a popular confusion that describes the tango milonga as a "tango in a fast tempo". This representation fails to explain the existence of the slow tango milonga, like Sebastián Piana´s Milonga Triste (1936), or Astor Piazzolla´s Milonga del Angel, among many others. The confusion grew when some tango historians invented the term orquesta milonguera for orchestras that had a great sense of rhythm.
The main characteristic of the tango milonga (both slow and fast) is the presence of the rhythmic patterns of the rural milonga, like those of figures 1 and 2, and other patterns like in the following examples:









Astor Piazzolla, the internationally known creator of the New Tango, who revolutionized the traditional tango by introducing elements of classical music and jazz, used the tango milonga rhythm as an essential part of his style. His use of the 3+3+2 rhythmic pattern (emphasis on the first, fourth, and sixth eighth notes in a 4/4 bar) derives from the mutation of the rural milonga rhythm typical of the guitar accompaniment (see figure 2). He used this pattern in several fast and slow tango milongas as well as in many of his other compositions, often combining them with other rhythmic cells.
The impressive work of Astor Piazzolla had a great influence in tango music and marked a path followed by the musicians of his and the next generations. The so-called post-piazzolleanos, among them Rodolfo Mederos and Pablo Ziegler, could not find yet an alternative to the Piazzolla esthetic proposal. Tango musicians currently face the challenge of redefining the tango milonga for the XXI Century. As tango bandleader and virtuoso bandeoneonist Aníbal Troilo said, "Tango has the habit of waiting".




Endless controversies exist concerning tango history, specially regarding its origins. The following bibliography presents sources that explore the diverse and contradictory theories:

* FERRER, HORACI El Libro del Tango. Crónica y Diccionario 1850-1977. Editorial Galerna (1977)
* LABRAÑA, LUIS y SEBASTIAN, ANA: Tango, una historia. Editorial Corregidor (1992)
* GOBELLO, JOSE: Crónica General del Tango. Editorial Fraterna (1980)
* COLLIER, SIMON et al: Tango! The Dance, the Song, the Story. Thames and Hudson Ltd. (1997)
发表于 2004-4-14 13:00:00 | 显示全部楼层
发表于 2004-4-14 14:28:00 | 显示全部楼层
我听过的milonga(不是说吉他的tango milonga)都是明快的,milonga的音乐,舞曲,节奏经常容易混淆,一些tango聚会就叫milonga
发表于 2004-4-14 21:21:00 | 显示全部楼层

此言有待商榷。。。。

此以下是引用ani在2004-4-14 11:36:00的发言:

西班牙音乐里的MILONGA我记得应该是一种Flamenco,起源应该是吉普塞族或摩尔族。
而阿根廷音乐里的MILONGA起源应该是非洲或古巴,虽然西班牙人曾殖民阿根廷,但在西班牙人去到那里以前,MILONGA音乐早已存在了。 记忆中最早时候是高地上的牧人对唱或合唱的山歌,以确认双方的存在。
西班牙历史上曾有8个世纪被摩尔人(今阿拉伯人)所统治,故我们所熟知的Asturias,Alhambra
皆源于此,1492年8月3日,哥伦布的船队在航行一个多月后到达巴哈马的一个小岛,接着
又抵达古巴和海地,除了血腥外,还有文化艺术,宗教信仰....
1804年,第一批黑人到达美洲,后的近百年血泪史所形成的是"蓝调"....
发表于 2004-4-15 23:58:00 | 显示全部楼层
1804年,第一批黑人到达美洲,后的近百年血泪史所形成的是"蓝调"....
也漫漫形成了美国"仅有"的文化~~哈,孙老师blues弹吗~
发表于 2004-4-16 00:15:00 | 显示全部楼层
蓝调BLUES, 拉丁音乐的发展史就是一部黑人和印第安人的血泪史, 植民主义者的罪恶史, 作为一个善良的人和有正义感的人, 我们不应该演奏这些的音乐.
发表于 2004-4-16 00:29:00 | 显示全部楼层
我们唱着东方红,当家做主站起来;我们唱着春天的故事,改革开放富起来;继往开来的领路人,带领我们走进新时代,高举旗帜开创未来。
发表于 2004-4-16 00:41:00 | 显示全部楼层
北方儿那个吹诶诶(am)雪花儿那个漂嗷(em)雪花儿那个漂嗷嗷(蹦礤嚓)年来爱爱挨刀(减弱,无穷动。。。)
发表于 2004-4-16 10:44:00 | 显示全部楼层
楼上和弦配错了吧? 好象不应该是EM.
节奏也不应该是蹦礤嚓吧?
发表于 2004-4-16 14:04:00 | 显示全部楼层

太难。。。

以下是引用小兵吉他在2004-4-15 23:58

哈,孙老师blues弹吗~
----------------“唉声叹气地说”
发表于 2004-4-16 17:18:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用哈哈在2004-4-16 10:44:00的发言:

楼上和弦配错了吧? 好象不应该是EM.
节奏也不应该是蹦礤嚓吧?
不和谐的伴奏,不同的走向,两条小调交织表达出人物苦难,无奈终究无法摆脱的命运主题甭擦擦大胆的结合了来自古老民间的哈巴涅拉曲风的大胆改良成叫化子三拍节奏,令人为之一震,似乎要进入明快的主题,随即的无穷动又抹杀了这种瞬间的希望。我们一定要仔细分析理解作者的意图才能更好的体会作品的意境。。。。。。
发表于 2004-4-16 17:19:00 | 显示全部楼层
哈哈~~~~~~
发表于 2004-4-16 17:26:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用popgog在2004-4-16 17:18:00的发言:




不和谐的伴奏,不同的走向,两条小调交织表达出人物苦难,无奈终究无法摆脱的命运主题甭擦擦大胆的结合了来自古老民间的哈巴涅拉曲风的大胆改良成叫化子三拍节奏,令人为之一震,似乎要进入明快的主题,随即的无穷动又抹杀了这种瞬间的希望。我们一定要仔细分析理解作者的意图才能更好的体会作品的意境。。。。。。


用尽全身的力气挣扎着说出最后一个字: 牛人!
口吐白沫,重度昏迷中......


[此贴子已经被作者于2004-4-16 17:37:37编辑过]

发表于 2004-4-16 17:33:00 | 显示全部楼层
那些安定医院的大夫,小护士,还有院长在什么地方呀?
这里有个病人......
发表于 2004-4-16 18:32:00 | 显示全部楼层
多麻烦,吃点安定即可。。。
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